[Recording Start]
Rick Rosner: We’re fortunate in that regard. It involves the concept of selling that idea.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Absolutely. This discussion is primarily within our IC context, a limited scope where we share common ground. It’s more for our benefit than for others. My understanding is when people reference the physical, they are talking about the material. I perceive the physical as a subset of the material, which in turn is a subset of the natural. In an IC context, the natural is a subset of the informational. Essentially, information is fundamental. Take two different time states; the difference between them signifies a change of state, measurable in the amount of information that differs. Additionally, the intrinsic information required for each state is crucial. The soul can be conceptualized as an informational construct, especially when considering the idea of an extended self. It’s an informational construct extending beyond standard cognition but remains completely natural and devoid of any mystical elements. This perspective brings us back to the discussion on metaphysics and the concept of the soul in a universe that operates quantum mechanically, which is fundamentally incomplete and lacks complete self-knowledge.
Rosner: Perhaps we haven’t concluded our discussion about the soul.
Jacobsen: Maybe not. Let’s explore the idea of the soul as a continually changing, incomplete construct.
Rosner: If we consider the soul as a cumulative landscape shaped by specific informational events, memories, and knowledge, it’s clear that this landscape requires a complete history of your experiences. To argue that it’s a general landscape, one might suggest that you could fully characterize your soul with all the information in your mental universe. However, this isn’t practical. For the soul to be a conceptually useful tool, it should be an abridged version of all the information that contributes to its formation. For instance, when considering babies, we often use simple descriptors like ‘happy baby’ or ‘cranky baby,’ which summarize a complex set of information about each child. This abridgement is what makes the concept of the soul practical. We should be able to characterize an individual’s essence using much less information than what went into forming their personality.
Jacobsen: Extending this idea to the soul as a natural entity, it suggests that souls can overlap. My extended self overlaps with yours to some extent. We might consider first-order and second-order souls or subsets of the soul.
Rosner: This concept is somewhat echoed in certain religions, like Judaism, which posits that people continue to live in the memories of those who remember them.
Jacobsen: I was thinking along those lines. It aligns with a secular Judaist perspective.
Rosner: However, it’s quite unsatisfying. Compared to traditional promises of an eternal afterlife or infinite oblivion, it seems lackluster.
Jacobsen: Yet, it’s more satisfying than the notion of complete oblivion.
Rosner: It feels closer to oblivion than to infinity. But if we could somehow externalize consciousness, allowing it to exist independently of the brain, we could develop a more satisfying concept of living on. Today, we leave more behind, like digital recordings and social media posts, but it’s not quite the same. If we could replicate consciousness and share it, then the idea of living on through our thoughts becomes more compelling.
Jacobsen: The ‘nuggets of consciousness’ you mentioned are productions, not consciousness itself. This would be a secondary extension of the soul.
Rosner: Zuckerberg once mentioned wanting Facebook to be telepathic in the future. If that means exporting feelings so others can experience them as their own, it opens up new possibilities. Sharing consciousness in this way would be a significant advancement.
Jacobsen: However, this ‘exportation’ would be different from actual consciousness. It would be more of a recreation of the secondary aspects of the soul.
Rosner: If we could open the ‘black box’ of consciousness, allowing shared subjective experiences, it could lead to a more profound understanding of consciousness. It might require a long process of shared experiences to merge consciousnesses effectively.
Jacobsen: Transplanting a complete map of consciousness to a different context would be akin to copy-pasting, lacking the necessary associations for optimal functioning.
Rosner: This is an area that requires new technologies and mathematics. Yet, there can be well-defined distinctions between first and second-order aspects of the soul in an informational context.
Jacobsen: The first-order aspect of the soul is akin to the mind, while the second-order aspect extends beyond, influenced by our interactions with others and the world.
Rosner: We’ve touched upon various aspects of the soul. Essentially, we’ve been attempting to characterize it in informational terms, which aligns with our discussions on metaphysics.
Jacobsen: Right. The universe’s incomplete knowledge about itself makes the soul an inherently dynamic and changing construct. A perfect metaphysics would likely equate to perfect physics, blurring the line between the two.
Rosner: One argument is to discard metaphysics as it’s often muddied by less rigorous philosophies. Another argument suggests that well-founded metaphysical statements are essentially physical, tied to the universe’s principles.
Jacobsen: Metaphysics got cleaner with the advent of proper science. Historically, metaphysical thinking was dominant, often tied to religious and mystical beliefs. Modern science has gradually reduced the space for ‘God of the gaps’ and metaphysical speculation.
Rosner: In summary, metaphysics has been historically linked with imprecise philosophies, but there are arguments for a set of general principles about the world that could be termed metaphysical. Alternatively, well-founded metaphysical statements could be seen as physical, connected to the universe’s principles.
Jacobsen: Lastly, the soul as an informational construct with first and second-order properties is a derivative concept from these discussions.
Rosner: Exactly. We’ve explored the soul from various angles, suggesting that it can be understood as an underlying informational landscape shaped by a person’s history and experiences.
Jacobsen: In conclusion, our exploration of the soul and metaphysics leads us to consider the evolving nature of these concepts in light of our growing understanding of the universe and consciousness.
Rosner: Precisely. The end.
Jacobsen: The end.
[Recording End]
Authors
Rick Rosner
American Television Writer
Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Founder, In-Sight Publishing
In-Sight Publishing
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In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at http://www.rickrosner.org.
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Rick Rosner 